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Another conversation with Nancy Malik

This forum is in honour of Nancy. Although she's been banned from Think Humanism, her posts contain much that is useful in understanding homeopathy and homeopaths. As such they deserve to preserved and displayed.
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Dr. Nancy Malik
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Another conversation with Nancy Malik

#1 Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » December 16th, 2009, 6:22 am

A H

600 million credulous folk to prey on, the quacks must be in their element. :cross:


Figures of leading industry chamber, ASSOCHAM, Govt. of India

2005: Homeopathy was a Rs 630-crore market in India, growing at 25 per cent.
2008: The market estimated around Rs.12.5 billion, would continue to grow at around 25-30 percent, against 13-15 percent for the pharmaceuticals industry.
2010: The Indian homeopathy market is expected to top Rs.26 billion ($650 million) and outpace the growth of pharmaceutical industry in the country
Real (Homeopathic) medicine cures even when Conventional conventional Medicine (CAM) fails

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Alan C.
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Re: Homeopathy

#2 Postby Alan C. » December 16th, 2009, 1:37 pm

Oh dear! The quacks back :smile:
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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Alan H
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Re: Homeopathy

#3 Postby Alan H » December 16th, 2009, 1:46 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
A H

600 million credulous folk to prey on, the quacks must be in their element. :cross:


Figures of leading industry chamber, ASSOCHAM, Govt. of India

2005: Homeopathy was a Rs 630-crore market in India, growing at 25 per cent.
2008: The market estimated around Rs.12.5 billion, would continue to grow at around 25-30 percent, against 13-15 percent for the pharmaceuticals industry.
2010: The Indian homeopathy market is expected to top Rs.26 billion ($650 million) and outpace the growth of pharmaceutical industry in the country

And your point is?

Let me quote something that was said to the UK's House of Commons Select Sub-committee looking at the evidence for homeopathy:
That ‘it works for them’ is, of course, the overriding consideration of all defenders of homeopathy and one that Robert Wilson, Chairman of the British Association of Homeopathy Manufacturers, seemed unable to get past. His own answer to the question of whether it works beyond placebo was that in France and Germany, homeopathy is a “400 million euro business.”

“So is prostitution,” Phil Willis helpfully pointed out.
Source

Surely, Nancy, even you realise that popularity does not magically make homeopathy work.

Of course, the other answer to this is that when are these very rich homeopaths and homeopathic potion manufacturers going to do some proper research to back up their claims? Or aren't they interested in providing evidence that they are not misleading the public on a huge scale.

And what about the test of homeopathy you promised you'd take part in? Here's a link to it in case you've forgotten all about it.

I hope to see you replying there very soon.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Re: Homeopathy

#4 Postby Trinoc » December 16th, 2009, 2:53 pm

Alan H wrote:And what about the test of homeopathy you promised you'd take part in? Here's a link to it in case you've forgotten all about it.

I hope to see you replying there very soon.
I'm not sure I understand what the proposed test would achieve, and there seem to be too many possible confounding factors.

How about this? ...

Buy 11 identical phials of 30C arnica from a "reputable" chemist / health shop.
Evaporate one of these to dryness to confirm that there really is only water present.
Buy a bottle of best quality laboratory distilled water and 20 sealable phials.
Label the phials at random.
Get someone else to randomly fill each phial with either 30C Arnica or distilled water and write down which is which on a piece of paper which nobody else sees at this point.
Get them to wrap the paper in foil then put it in a sealed envelope which both you and the homeopath sign over the seal.
The homeopath then determines which phials contain Arnica.
Open the envelope in front of as many witnesses as available from both sides and compare results.
Be skeptical of the things you believe are false, but be very skeptical of the things you believe are true.

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Dr. Nancy Malik
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Re: Homeopathy

#5 Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » December 16th, 2009, 4:19 pm

getreal wrote:To devote any more time, resources or money to further research is a shameful waste of limited NHS resources.

http://www.hpathy.com/cartoon/2009jun.asp
Real (Homeopathic) medicine cures even when Conventional conventional Medicine (CAM) fails

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Re: Homeopathy

#6 Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » December 16th, 2009, 4:21 pm

Alan C. wrote:
getreal
I have just received a reply from Nicola Sturgeon's office to a query re homoeopathy in which she said (basically) that more research needs to be done and that funds were available for this. This is a complete waste of time. money.
I hope you don't mind my minor correction[s] :
getreal. :wink:


http://www.hpathy.com/cartoon/2009feb.asp
Real (Homeopathic) medicine cures even when Conventional conventional Medicine (CAM) fails

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Re: Homeopathy

#7 Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » December 16th, 2009, 4:58 pm

Alan C. wrote:More chikanery from the homeopaths (from today's media scan)

It highlighted in particular calendula to prevent dermatitis, and what is known as Traummel S for mouth sores.


Eight studies with a total of 664 participants were considered by the group, led by Dr Sosie Kassab, a specialist in complementary cancer therapies at the Royal London Homeopathic Hospital.


This found that Traumeel S, a mixture which includes belladonna, arnica, St John's wort and echinacea, was effective in reducing stomatisis - painful mouth sores - when used as a mouthwash.



"Second, nobody doubts that undiluted remedies can have effects; and interestingly, the positive studies here seem to be on such medicines rather than on the highly diluted treatments which are a hallmark of homeopathy.

"In fact, the calendula cream found to be effective in one study is not diluted at all and thus it cannot, to all intents and purposes, be considered to be a typical homeopathic remedy.



Homeopathy 'eases cancer therapy'


Cancer statistics
http://excalibur.110mb.com/cancerstats.htm
Real (Homeopathic) medicine cures even when Conventional conventional Medicine (CAM) fails

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Re: Homeopathy

#8 Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » December 16th, 2009, 5:34 pm

Paolo wrote:The Mail demonstrates an utter inability to report sensibly (there's a surprise). I doubt that they'll bother posting my comments, so here they are.


patients who received homeopathy had a 28 per cent improvement in nasal air flow compared with 3 per cent among those in the placebo group.
Real (Homeopathic) medicine cures even when Conventional conventional Medicine (CAM) fails

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Re: Homeopathy

#9 Postby Maria Mac » December 16th, 2009, 5:48 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
getreal wrote:To devote any more time, resources or money to further research is a shameful waste of limited NHS resources.

http://www.hpathy.com/cartoon/2009jun.asp

The NHS shouldn't waste a penny on pre-science cult therapies without a jot of evidence that they work beyond placebo. Which is what homeopathy is.

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Re: Homeopathy

#10 Postby Lifelinking » December 16th, 2009, 6:09 pm

Image
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

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Dr. Nancy Malik
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Re: Homeopathy

#11 Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » December 16th, 2009, 6:19 pm

Nirvanam wrote:
Maria wrote:Stop posting those useless links, Nancy. I'm removing them because I only accept advertising for ethical products on this site, which I pay for.
Lol! How exactly do you define "ethical", Maria?

Just as a matter of procedure wanted to know if I were to advertise some product, is there any reference material here on the site which defines an 'ethical product'?

From the posts, I didn't think Nancy was advertising. But maybe she did because I haven't really followed this thread till today, after months.


I have talked about the things which were under discussion in this thread titled "Homeopathy". I did not even start afresh on any new topic. All I replied is related to things under consideration. If that is unethical, that means you were discussing unethical at the first place
Real (Homeopathic) medicine cures even when Conventional conventional Medicine (CAM) fails

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Re: Homeopathy

#12 Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » December 16th, 2009, 7:00 pm

Nirvanam wrote:
Alan C. wrote:
Alan C, any expertise on any of these subjects Nancy mentioned?
Nope.
What is your expertise in?

If you do not have expertise in something, how exactly are you arguing that homeopathy does not work?


To alan: Prove that homeopathy does not work. the proof of the pudding lies in eating. If you don't believe it works, have it your way and we wish you the best of luck.

A negative result is not proof that something doesn't work. Eddison, reportedly had over 10,000 negative results before inventing the light bulb. By your logic after the first failure he had successfully proven that electricity could not be used to produce light. Clearly this was not the case.

the fact that he had 10 000 failures means that all the failures were proof that it didn't work, the time it started to work was proof that he finally found the right method.
Real (Homeopathic) medicine cures even when Conventional conventional Medicine (CAM) fails

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Re: Homeopathy

#13 Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » December 16th, 2009, 7:10 pm

Alan H wrote:Nancy

Can you tell me why, as joint owner and admin, either Maria or I should allow you to continue to post without properly engaging in any discussion whatsoever.


I was not aware that you are also a co-owner. I will post less of links and more of text now. I suppose this will keep both of you happy
Real (Homeopathic) medicine cures even when Conventional conventional Medicine (CAM) fails

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Re: Homeopathy

#14 Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » December 16th, 2009, 7:13 pm

Alan H wrote:Nancy is asserting homeopathy works. It's up to her to provide that evidence. Up till now, she has provided not one jot of evidence that we find in the slightest bit convincing.


Studies in support of Homeopathy have been published in the following journals
1. Oxford
2. Springerlink
3. InterScience by Wiley
4. Homeopathy, on Elseiver by science Direct
5. Central Council of Research in Homeopathy, Govt of India
6. Scientific World Journal
7. Lancet
8.Asian Journal of Homeopathy
9. Neuro psycho pharmacology
10. British Medical Journal
11.Cochrane
12. Chest
13. Complementary Therapy in Medicne
14. American Journal of Paedretics
15. Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine
16. Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal

you tell which one you would like to know first?
Real (Homeopathic) medicine cures even when Conventional conventional Medicine (CAM) fails

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Re: Homeopathy

#15 Postby Alan H » December 16th, 2009, 7:16 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:I will post less of links and more of text now. I suppose this will keep both of you happy
Nancy

That might be an improvement, but only if you engage in the criticism offered by others with your words. Remember it is up to you to provide convincing evidence in support of your assertions. And just copying and pasting from other websites will not be good enough either. There is a simple guide here that should be obvious to many, but I recommend you read it.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

jdc
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Re: Homeopathy

#16 Postby jdc » December 16th, 2009, 7:18 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
Alan H wrote:Nancy is asserting homeopathy works. It's up to her to provide that evidence. Up till now, she has provided not one jot of evidence that we find in the slightest bit convincing.


Studies in support of Homeopathy have been published in the following journals
1. Oxford
2. Springerlink
3. InterScience by Wiley
4. Homeopathy, on Elseiver by science Direct
5. Central Council of Research in Homeopathy, Govt of India
6. Scientific World Journal
7. Lancet
8.Asian Journal of Homeopathy
9. Neuro psycho pharmacology
10. British Medical Journal
11.Cochrane
12. Chest
13. Complementary Therapy in Medicne
14. American Journal of Paedretics
15. Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine
16. Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal

you tell which one you would like to know first?

I'd vote for Cochrane first. In fact, why don't we discuss each of the Cochrane reviews for homeopathic treatment?
My Blog; Twitter.
Email: 325jdc325 (at) googlemail.com

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Re: Homeopathy

#17 Postby Alan H » December 16th, 2009, 7:19 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
Alan H wrote:Nancy is asserting homeopathy works. It's up to her to provide that evidence. Up till now, she has provided not one jot of evidence that we find in the slightest bit convincing.


Studies in support of Homeopathy have been published in the following journals
1. Oxford
2. Springerlink
3. InterScience by Wiley
4. Homeopathy, on Elseiver by science Direct
5. Central Council of Research in Homeopathy, Govt of India
6. Scientific World Journal
7. Lancet
8.Asian Journal of Homeopathy
9. Neuro psycho pharmacology
10. British Medical Journal
11.Cochrane
12. Chest
13. Complementary Therapy in Medicne
14. American Journal of Paedretics
15. Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine
16. Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal

you tell which one you would like to know first?
Nancy

It's not up to me to decide what might be the best evidence you can find: you provide the evidence and argue it and try to convince us with facts and rational argument.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

jdc
Posts: 516
Joined: January 27th, 2009, 9:03 pm

Re: Homeopathy

#18 Postby jdc » December 16th, 2009, 7:20 pm

1.

http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab000353.html wrote:Homeopathy is a complementary healing system based on "curing like with like". It involves greatly diluting substances (potentising) which ordinarily may or may not cause symptoms, in order to strengthen the body's own healing response to a problem. Homeopathic remedies (potencies) aim to minimise the risk of adverse effects. There are different types that may be used for asthma, such as classical homeopathy (tailored to an individual's symptoms) or isopathy (for example using a dilution of an agent that causes an allergy, such as pollen). The review of trials found that the type of homeopathy varied between the studies, that the study designs used in the trials were varied and that no strong evidence existed that usual forms of homeopathy for asthma are effective. There has been only a limited attempt to measure a 'package of care' effect (i.e., the effect of the medication as well as the consultation, which is considered a vital part of individualised homeopathic practice). Until stronger evidence exists for the use of homeopathy in the treatment of asthma, we are unable to make recommendations about homeopathic treatment.
My Blog; Twitter.
Email: 325jdc325 (at) googlemail.com

jdc
Posts: 516
Joined: January 27th, 2009, 9:03 pm

Re: Homeopathy

#19 Postby jdc » December 16th, 2009, 7:21 pm

2.

http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab003803.html wrote:No evidence that homeopathy is effective in treating dementia

Dementia is a distressing illness that has major implications for individuals with the disease and their carers. Homeopathy is a popular type of complementary medicine. It is however controversial because although there is some evidence that it is not just a placebo, no one understands how it could work. The researchers did not find any good quality trials and so cannot say whether it is or is not effective for treating this condition. As no information is available on how much homeopathy is used for dementia, it is difficult to say whether it is important to conduct more trials.
My Blog; Twitter.
Email: 325jdc325 (at) googlemail.com

jdc
Posts: 516
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Re: Homeopathy

#20 Postby jdc » December 16th, 2009, 7:24 pm

3.

http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab005648.html wrote:Homeopathy for ADHD

This review aimed to assess the evidence for homeopathy as an intervention for attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder. Four trials were retrieved and assessed with mixed results. Overall the results of this review found no evidence of effectiveness for homeopathy for the global symptoms, core symptoms or related outcomes of attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder.


BTW, I'm doing this by using homeopathy as a search term on Google, limiting the search to the Cochrane website, and posting the plain language summary of each review. I have no way of knowing what the reviews say before I click on them and am posting the reviews whether positive or negative.
My Blog; Twitter.
Email: 325jdc325 (at) googlemail.com


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