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Stop whining, just start atheist/humanist schools

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coffee
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Stop whining, just start atheist/humanist schools

#1 Postby coffee » April 19th, 2016, 11:56 am

Stop whining, just start atheist/humanist schools
Let compete against them if the BHA got gut

https://humanism.org.uk/2016/04/19/dfe- ... emisation/

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Alan H
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Re: Stop whining, just start atheist/humanist schools

#2 Postby Alan H » April 25th, 2016, 4:02 pm

What the BHA says: Why aren’t there any humanist schools?

Faced with the proliferation of faith-based schools this is a question that humanists often ask.

The primary answer is this:

Because the BHA campaigns positively for integrated inclusive schools for children of all faiths and none. It would be no less ethically unsound and socially divisive to set up overtly humanist schools in a pluralistic society than it is to set up religious schools.

And in addition:

Because many schools without a religious character more or less meet our ideal in their ethos and values. If collective worship was ended and RE became universally objective, fair and balanced (and included non-religious views such as Humanism), community schools would indeed be exactly what we would want a school to be – open and accommodating to all.

Religious faith is a private matter for families and communities, to be accommodated but not supported or favoured by the state and its schools. The BHA respects human rights and has no objection to optional worship or optional religious instruction.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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coffee
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Re: Stop whining, just start atheist/humanist schools

#3 Postby coffee » April 25th, 2016, 7:57 pm

If secular schools are adequate then why are people lie about their belief to get their children into faith schools. I think humanism as advocate by BHA and faith are two sides of the coin. The only way to find out decidedly which is better is for the humanists to run their own schools then I can compare apple with apple and decide for myself. Right now the BHA trashing faith schools from the ringside but refusing to get into the ring.

By deciding to run humanist school, may be humanists can learn to do things better and provide better services for atheists so that they don't have to go to faiths organisation for help if they unfortunate enough to run into difficulty in there life.

Humanist (BHA)emphasis freedom, faith people want security. This is divisive to ordinary people because they need both

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Alan H
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Re: Stop whining, just start atheist/humanist schools

#4 Postby Alan H » April 25th, 2016, 8:03 pm

coffee wrote:If secular schools are adequate then why are people lie about their belief to get their children into faith schools. I think humanism as advocate by BHA and faith are two sides of the coin. The only way to find out decidedly which is better is for the humanists to run their own schools then I can compare apple with apple and decide for myself. Right now the BHA trashing faith schools from the ringside but refusing to get into the ring.

By deciding to run humanist school, may be humanists can learn to do things better and provide better services for atheists so that they don't have to go to faiths organisation for help if they unfortunate enough to run into difficulty in there life.

But we know some religious schools perform better than other schools (and hence some parents want their children to go to those schools) but we know why they sometimes perform better: selection. The way to make schools better for all children (surely a Humanist aim?) is to get rid of the selection process, not to try to compete by creating Humanist schools.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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coffee
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Re: Stop whining, just start atheist/humanist schools

#5 Postby coffee » April 25th, 2016, 8:26 pm

The problem with the bha is they to stay neutral so there values are neutral so there is no knockout blow, as a result the battle is dragging on and on in a boring fashion. With this in mind, I now decide save my good money by step back from making donation toward this worthless piecemeal battles (unless it is a share goal or really worthy goal).

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Alan H
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Re: Stop whining, just start atheist/humanist schools

#6 Postby Alan H » April 25th, 2016, 8:46 pm

coffee wrote:The problem with the bha is they to stay neutral so there values are neutral so there is no knockout blow, as a result the battle is dragging on and on in a boring fashion. With this in mind, I now decide save my good money by step back from making donation toward this worthless piecemeal battles (unless it is a share goal or really worthy goal).
It would be a knock-out blow and own-goal to religionists if they took the position that they wanted their own schools! They'd just be another 'faith' group that wanted to indoctrinate their kids at the taxpayers' expense. The BHA are quite clear: they want good, rounded education for all children, nit just a select few.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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coffee
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Re: Stop whining, just start atheist/humanist schools

#7 Postby coffee » April 25th, 2016, 9:57 pm

It would be a knock-out blow and own-goal to religionists if they took the position that they wanted their own schools! They'd just be another 'faith' group that wanted to indoctrinate their kids at the taxpayers' expense. The BHA are quite clear: they want good, rounded education for all children, nit just a select few.


If humanists values were more rounded in secular school then people would stop sending there children to faith school then wouldn't they? The fact is they were/are not values reflex in the real world.

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Alan H
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Re: Stop whining, just start atheist/humanist schools

#8 Postby Alan H » April 25th, 2016, 10:15 pm

coffee wrote:
It would be a knock-out blow and own-goal to religionists if they took the position that they wanted their own schools! They'd just be another 'faith' group that wanted to indoctrinate their kids at the taxpayers' expense. The BHA are quite clear: they want good, rounded education for all children, nit just a select few.


If humanists values were more rounded in secular school then people would stop sending there children to faith school then wouldn't they?
No, I don't think it's that simple. I think many parents send their children to religious schools because they get good exam results, not because of their values.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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coffee
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Re: Stop whining, just start atheist/humanist schools

#9 Postby coffee » April 26th, 2016, 3:28 am

No, I don't think it's that simple. I think many parents send their children to religious schools because they get good exam results, not because of their values.


So they are doing something right. The only way to find out what it is, is for humanists to start there own schools and learn from there own mistake and get better. Like I said before the bha and the faith groups are two sides of the same coin. The way forward is to have a straight competition between faith groups and the bha schools, then we can stop this nonsense battles once and for all.

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coffee
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Re: Stop whining, just start atheist/humanist schools

#10 Postby coffee » April 26th, 2016, 9:46 am

I can no longer support an organisation like the bha who goes into battles with no intention to deliver a decisive blow, I want to support an alternative humanist groups that aim to deliver a decisive blow, this will save time, money and effort.

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Dave B
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Re: Stop whining, just start atheist/humanist schools

#11 Postby Dave B » April 26th, 2016, 10:02 am

I understand the BHA position, though I do think it has become something of a political movement rather than a philosophical one - but then history shows the score to be philosophy nil : politics lots. [PS that transition was inevitable.]

One advantage of a school with a solidly atheist or humanist ethos would be to take a little out of the smugness of the faith school system and their current love affair with the government.

However, such a school would have to be as good as the best of faith schools. I have a sneaking respect for my local faith school. Luckily not all the teachers are strong religionistas and they do produce some smart and disciplined pupils. That would need to be matched or bettered.

I would also imagine that the establishment of such a school would have to pass every test, jump every hoop, that the formal/informal establishment could throw at it. Unless it started as a few friends forming a free school it could not be established in a covert manner, its ethos would have to be well advertised if it needed a large number of children.

Unless it was those few friends in a smallish locale it might also need to be a partly residential, boarding, school.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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coffee
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Re: Stop whining, just start atheist/humanist schools

#12 Postby coffee » April 26th, 2016, 10:16 am

I would also imagine that the establishment of such a school would have to pass every test, jump every hoop, that the formal/informal establishment could throw at it. Unless it started as a few friends forming a free school it could not be established in a covert manner, its ethos would have to be well advertised if it needed a large number of children.


In short, so the bha want the results but they don't want to put in the responsibilities and effort.

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Alan H
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Re: Stop whining, just start atheist/humanist schools

#13 Postby Alan H » April 26th, 2016, 11:00 am

coffee wrote:
I would also imagine that the establishment of such a school would have to pass every test, jump every hoop, that the formal/informal establishment could throw at it. Unless it started as a few friends forming a free school it could not be established in a covert manner, its ethos would have to be well advertised if it needed a large number of children.


In short, so the bha want the results but they don't want to put in the responsibilities and effort.

No, The BHA want children not to be segregated by the religion (or belief) of their parents and all taught together; one of the problems with religions schools is this segregation; setting up Humanist schools (even if they did have the resources necessary to do that) simply adds to those divisions.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Re: Stop whining, just start atheist/humanist schools

#14 Postby Dave B » April 26th, 2016, 11:17 am

Alan H wrote:
coffee wrote:
I would also imagine that the establishment of such a school would have to pass every test, jump every hoop, that the formal/informal establishment could throw at it. Unless it started as a few friends forming a free school it could not be established in a covert manner, its ethos would have to be well advertised if it needed a large number of children.


In short, so the bha want the results but they don't want to put in the responsibilities and effort.

No, The BHA want children not to be segregated by the religion (or belief) of their parents and all taught together; one of the problems with religions schools is this segregation; setting up Humanist schools (even if they did have the resources necessary to do that) simply adds to those divisions.
Hmm, good point about not even segregating atheist kids from the rest, but need such a school ban jon-atheist kids if their parents want them to go there? It could still be an open policy school but, if an academy or free school, not tied to the establishment in terms of the syllabus.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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coffee
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Re: Stop whining, just start atheist/humanist schools

#15 Postby coffee » April 26th, 2016, 1:13 pm

It is the only way to find out if humanism philosofy actually works, what are its strongest points and weakest points, is to try it out and test it.

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Alan H
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Re: Stop whining, just start atheist/humanist schools

#16 Postby Alan H » April 26th, 2016, 3:26 pm

coffee wrote:It is the only way to find out if humanism philosofy actually works, what are its strongest points and weakest points, is to try it out and test it.
By indoctrinating children?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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coffee
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Re: Stop whining, just start atheist/humanist schools

#17 Postby coffee » April 26th, 2016, 4:16 pm

People can choose to come to my house or not it up to them. If they come, it will be under my rules, yes. And you know where I stand, what are my values.

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Alan H
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Re: Stop whining, just start atheist/humanist schools

#18 Postby Alan H » April 26th, 2016, 4:26 pm

coffee wrote:People can choose to come to my house or not it up to them. If they come, it will be under my rules, yes. And you know where I stand, what are my values.
Yes, but you're not the state and you're not funding your house from taxpayers' money. Most religions schools are funded by the taxpayer yet they are exempted from equality legislation with the connivance of the Government to the detriment of society.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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coffee
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Re: Stop whining, just start atheist/humanist schools

#19 Postby coffee » April 26th, 2016, 4:43 pm

Yes, but religious people pay tax too don't they (I am not speaking for them or defending them, it just fact, and even, there are atheists who want send their children to religious school too, they just like some of the values the bible stand for)

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Alan H
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Re: Stop whining, just start atheist/humanist schools

#20 Postby Alan H » April 26th, 2016, 5:07 pm

coffee wrote:Yes, but religious people pay tax too don't they (I am not speaking for them or defending them, it just fact, and even, there are atheists who want send their children to religious school too, they just like some of the values the bible stand for)

Yes, they do. But there is no requirement for the State to provide segregating schools at taxpayers' expense that we know cause division and problems in society.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?


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