Alan H wrote: Nick wrote:
There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:
1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?
1. To avoid continuing to move in the same disastrous direction that the EU is taking, economically, politically and democratically.
That really just won't do, Nick.
Yes, it will! It'll do perfectly.
I didn't ask you what damage you believed might be incurred if we didn't leave: I asked what the benefits of leaving would be.
You might think avoiding disaster is not a benefit, but I do.
Do you understand the difference and do you have an answer?
The difference is semantic, the benefit is real.
Let me help you: I seem to remember that £350 million a week for the NHS was promised.
Straww man. You lose!!
Do you remember that one? There were loads more, generally characterised as promising rainbows and unicorns for everyone...
So what? I didn't cite them did I? So your comment is irrelevant.
2. The damage is being inflicted by the EU as a deliberate policy. Not least to frighten the others. They don't have to but they
LOL! Please try to focus: I didn't ask what damage you believe the EU may inflict - deliberately or otherwise and for whatever reason - as a consequence of leaving. I asked you what damage was acceptable for the benefits of leaving - once you've told us what you believe those benefits are, of course.
Sigh. The benefit of leaving the EU is not being beholden to Brussels and their agenda of ever-closer union, which even as we watch is coming apart. I believe the eventual damage we would suffer by remaining is worse than the cost of remaining. I might as well ask you why you think a bit of extra money today is worth a catastrophe tomorrow.
Sometimes a terrible price has to be paid. No doubt our GDP would have done nicely under nice Mr Hitler......
Godwin's Law. You lose.
Sure, it's an example of Godwin's Law, but that doesn't mean it is not relevant. So, Alan, what political costs do you think are justified?
But what, precisely, is this terrible price (which is the question I was asking) and why was it not mentioned on either the ballot paper or by the Leave campaign?
That all depends on the EU, and they're not telling, are they? I didn't notice the Remainers outlining quite how nasty and repressive the EU would be, not only to use, but to any sign of dissent in Europe. And so far, the dire warnings of Remainer, immediate recession, etc, have simply not materialised, have they? And quite what would you propose should actually be on a ballot paper...?
Perhaps we really never knew what we were voting for after all?
Sure, it's complex. And if we are to live in a democracy, then votes by the great unwashed have to count too, and they aren't going to examine it in a great detail, are they?
Why is it, after eighteen moths, no one still has a clue?
Because we have no idea what the EU will decide. That's hardly the fault of Leavers, is it?
If no one knows, how do we know what the right decision is?
On that basis, we'd never do anything. I take it you will be refraining from voting from now on, because you can't know what a Corbyn Government would do....?
3. The enforcement of the prohibition of the ECB to act as lender of last resort, thus condemning entire countries to penury, and destroying the hopes of entire generations.
The ECJ certainly got a few mentions by the Leave campaign (although some clearly thought they were the same as the ECHR) but I certainly don't remember them mentioning that one
But it's the one I'm mentioning. You might be happy with the devastation of Southern Europe and the waste of millions of fellow Europeans lives, but I'm not.
(which was about the Eurozone of which the UK is not a member)! Can you cite any instances of them complaining about this as reason to leave?
I don't have to, any more than you have to support any other hare-brained scheme by any lefty loons. I gave you an answer which you have failed to address.