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In or out?

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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Alan H
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In or out?

#1 Postby Alan H » February 20th, 2016, 1:43 pm

So, 23 June: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK voteShould we stay in or leave? Why and what are the implications?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Re: In or out?

#2 Postby Dave B » February 20th, 2016, 1:57 pm

On one of my edges here.

But I am going for staying in. I do not feel that Britain can stand alone. Even if there are some crap policies in Europe one can hope that they improve with time. Ditto the bureaucracy.

This is more of a gut feeling than anything but I can't shake it. Grown to respect my guts (even if they get irritable at tines :D )
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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animist
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Re: In or out?

#3 Postby animist » February 20th, 2016, 3:44 pm

deffo for staying in, though the evil and occasionally bored part of me would be interested to see the chaos which IMO will follow a Brexit vote in this referendum. But what happens should the popular will be a vote to leave? Parliament actually makes the decision, and will MPs follow the result if it is a narrow one to leave?

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jaywhat
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Re: In or out?

#4 Postby jaywhat » February 20th, 2016, 4:38 pm

in

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lewist
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Re: In or out?

#5 Postby lewist » February 20th, 2016, 5:28 pm

...23 June, just after the Scottish Election? That's just not acceptable. We need the election to focus on Scottish issues but the Media will be banging on about Europe.

Cameron is a vile ignoramus.
Carpe diem. Savour every moment.

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Fia
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Re: In or out?

#6 Postby Fia » February 21st, 2016, 12:42 am

In. Despite being mightily uncomfortable to support Cameron in anything and very much disliking his greedy, insular ignorance of human rights little englander renegotiations this may help. I'm in the tenth of the population being a "citizen of the world", but pretty sure on here that would be a majority...

Lewist: although I agree with your description of Cameron I think we're savvy enough to not fall for the BBC take. tbh I hope England votes brexit and we don't. I'd far rather be part of Europe than an adjunct of English small mindedness. Most of us don't need time to ponder. The England that brought Cameron back to power is the same England that believes the rhetoric of a grand put upon nation by all these darn immigrants - who actually put so much back into our society that they don't recognise.

Bring it on. It brings our independence closer.

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Dave B
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Re: In or out?

#7 Postby Dave B » February 21st, 2016, 4:46 am

Fia, though I agree with some of your points please remember that Cameron mainly respresents Cameron, not England or the English. OK, we voted him and his lot in but we were not exactly spoilt for choice.

I do not think expressions like, "English small mindedness," help here. One might say that those qualified to vote on Scottish independence who voted against must share the same frame of mind to wish to associate with us benighted southerners. That was the majority of Scots ten? It is like saying that those who voted for independence are "rabid nationalists." With the conotations that word has it could also be something of an insult. "Nationalist" also implies narrow mindedness, used by some less than nice political parties and movements.

Perhaps I ckoud also be excused in taking it as a personal insult?
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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lewist
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Re: In or out?

#8 Postby lewist » February 21st, 2016, 8:48 am

Dave B wrote:That was the majority of Scots ten? It is like saying that those who voted for independence are "rabid nationalists." With the connotations that word has it could also be something of an insult. "Nationalist" also implies narrow mindedness, used by some less than nice political parties and movements.

Perhaps I could also be excused in taking it as a personal insult?
Dave! I don't think Fia was referring to the whole of England or English people. Granted, we should perhaps be very clear if we use such terms.

On the referendum result, it is miraculous that we had as many as 45% voting for independence, given the way things were stacked against us. The BBC was - and still is - a supporter of Unionist parties and consistently stacked things against us. The Westminster establishment told any lie it wanted and even the supposedly neutral Civil Service connived at the lies at the highest level. Pensioners were doorstepped and told they would lose their pensions. The NO campaign was seriously abusive, yet we still hear nothing about that, but only of 'vile cybernats'. The behaviour of the London based gutter press was appalling. Enough.

I believe in the EU, I do not believe in the 'UK', which has been a vehicle for the theft of our resources. It's very difficult for many of us to separate the majority of good English people, many of whom are my personal friends - as I hope you are, albeit online - from the vileness that is coming from Westminster.

Pooling and sharing? :angry:
Carpe diem. Savour every moment.

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Ninny
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Re: In or out?

#9 Postby Ninny » February 21st, 2016, 9:12 am

Stay in. No brainer.

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Dave B
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Re: In or out?

#10 Postby Dave B » February 21st, 2016, 9:47 am

OK, message to all: say exactly what you mean, despite the definition of fabled democracy the government is not the people - it is the nearest human systems can get to a representative body that may, or may not, actually represent what they think! So "small minded British governent" would be perfectly acceptable to me at least. As yet it is not an English government, even if you have a partial government of your own. I actually wish it were an English government, with no Scottish, Welsh or Irish members at all. Give them full independence and let them run the totality of their own affairs I say!

Sorry, going OT, I deliberately keep out of the Scottish independence debate, suffering a bit of a back-lash here! The true "Little Englanders" can only be those in UKIP etc. The government is another matter, working on self serving agendas at all levels it seems, the English suffer under their governance as well, perhaps more in some ways (NHS for e.g.)
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Tetenterre
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Re: In or out?

#11 Postby Tetenterre » February 21st, 2016, 1:00 pm

If I was in charge, I'd definitely vote "out", so I could get rid of the stupid EU policies. However, as long as we have any species of Labservalib government, I think they can be relied upon to rid us of the decent EU policies and keep the stupid ones. For that reason alone: IN.

Also, if both Farage and Gove want something, surely it must be wrong? Oh bugger - same goes for Cameron and Osborne...
Steve

Quantum Theory: The branch of science with which people who know absolutely sod all about quantum theory can explain anything.

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#12 Postby Alan H » February 21st, 2016, 1:04 pm

Tetenterre wrote:the stupid EU policies
Which ones?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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jaywhat
Posts: 15284
Joined: July 5th, 2007, 5:53 pm

Re: In or out?

#13 Postby jaywhat » February 21st, 2016, 4:28 pm

Tetenterre wrote:If I was in charge, I'd definitely vote "out", so I could get rid of the stupid EU policies. However, as long as we have any species of Labservalib government, I think they can be relied upon to rid us of the decent EU policies and keep the stupid ones. For that reason alone: IN.

Also, if both Farage and Gove want something, surely it must be wrong? Oh bugger - same goes for Cameron and Osborne...


......and Boris as well !

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Alan C.
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Re: In or out?

#14 Postby Alan C. » February 21st, 2016, 7:06 pm

Lewis.
I believe in the EU, I do not believe in the 'UK', which has been a vehicle for the theft of our resources.

The new £800 million (not a typo) Total gas plant Has just gone live at Sullom voe, UK 'government' sources say it will provide 10 percent of UK gas.
Do we in Shetland (supposedly part of the UK) get any?
No we don't, we have to continue buying our very expensive gas in bottles.

Living 20 miles from the biggest oil terminal in Europe, I'll say nowt about us having the most expensive petrol in the UK, despite the 20p a litre 'gift' from the chancer (not a typo) of the exchequer.

Don't get me started on the fishing!
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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animist
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Re: In or out?

#15 Postby animist » February 21st, 2016, 8:50 pm

hey, this is supposed to be about the EU, not Scotland! I get the impression that you three (Alan C, Fia and LewisT) actually hope for a Brexit in order that a second Scottish independence referendum takes you away from us - is that correct?

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animist
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Re: In or out?

#16 Postby animist » February 21st, 2016, 8:51 pm

Alan H wrote:
Tetenterre wrote:the stupid EU policies
Which ones?
and what is TT's preferred alternative to Labservalib government?

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lewist
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Re: In or out?

#17 Postby lewist » February 21st, 2016, 10:57 pm

animist wrote:hey, this is supposed to be about the EU, not Scotland! I get the impression that you three (Alan C, Fia and LewisT) actually hope for a Brexit in order that a second Scottish independence referendum takes you away from us - is that correct?
In my case, no. I would vote to stay anyway, though if it led to independence, so much the better.
Carpe diem. Savour every moment.

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Nick
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Re: In or out?

#18 Postby Nick » February 21st, 2016, 11:46 pm

Alan H wrote:
Tetenterre wrote:the stupid EU policies
Which ones?
How about the Euro, for starters. An utter, utter, utter disaster.

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Nick
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Re: In or out?

#19 Postby Nick » February 21st, 2016, 11:48 pm

Alan H wrote:So, 23 June: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK voteShould we stay in or leave? Why and what are the implications?

I'm trying to put together some sort of SWOT analysis, so maybe later.... :D

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Nick
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Re: In or out?

#20 Postby Nick » February 21st, 2016, 11:50 pm

animist wrote:deffo for staying in, though the evil and occasionally bored part of me would be interested to see the chaos which IMO will follow a Brexit vote in this referendum. But what happens should the popular will be a vote to leave? Parliament actually makes the decision, and will MPs follow the result if it is a narrow one to leave?
There are some MP's (possibly including Boris) who think that we can get a better deal by voting no. Hmmm... seems a dangerous course to me.


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