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If marriage sound too religious then...

Enter here to explore ethical issues and discuss the meaning and source of morality.
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coffee
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If marriage sound too religious then...

#1 Postby coffee » August 26th, 2016, 4:50 pm

If marriage sound too religious then why not just call civil partnerships ceremony or partnerships ceremony or humanist wedding for us non religious, who care whether it need to be recognized by UK law or not when we can go it alone and own the definition of it

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Alan H
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Re: If marriage sound too religious then...

#2 Postby Alan H » August 26th, 2016, 5:00 pm

coffee wrote:If marriage sound too religious then why not just call civil partnerships ceremony or partnerships ceremony or humanist wedding for us non religious, who care whether it need to be recognized by UK law or not when we can go it alone and own the definition of it
Not sure I've heard of anyone saying 'marriage' sounded too religious. But a lot of people rightly care that their marriage/partnership is recognised in law because there are right associated with that.
Alan Henness

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coffee
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Re: If marriage sound too religious then...

#3 Postby coffee » August 26th, 2016, 6:40 pm

Not sure I've heard of anyone saying 'marriage' sounded too religious


I am bore of it since the Christian banging on it-marriage is between man and a woman as if them own the word. Why can't humanist create their own culture?

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Alan H
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Re: If marriage sound too religious then...

#4 Postby Alan H » August 26th, 2016, 6:44 pm

coffee wrote:
Not sure I've heard of anyone saying 'marriage' sounded too religious


I am bore of it since the Christian banging on it-marriage is between man and a woman as if them own the word. Why can't humanist create their own culture?
But why should they? If xtians want to bang on about their religion and their beliefs then let 'em, it doesn't affect the rest of us - we can just choose to ignore them.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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coffee
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Re: If marriage sound too religious then...

#5 Postby coffee » August 26th, 2016, 7:13 pm

we can just choose to ignore them.


Yes we can ignore them but where then is our creativity

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Alan H
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Re: If marriage sound too religious then...

#6 Postby Alan H » August 26th, 2016, 7:41 pm

coffee wrote:
we can just choose to ignore them.


Yes we can ignore them but where then is our creativity
Our creativity isn't stifled by the thoughts and beliefs of others, is it?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Re: If marriage sound too religious then...

#7 Postby coffee » August 26th, 2016, 8:26 pm

I didn't mean their beliefs stifled our creativity. I said why not use it.

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Fia
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Re: If marriage sound too religious then...

#8 Postby Fia » August 28th, 2016, 1:03 pm

In Scotland we -licensed by the Registrar General for Scotland to solemnise legal marriages- Humanist Celebrants are pretty creative, Coffee :) We legally marry and perform Civil Partnerships for same sex couples too. We are campaigning for Civil Partnerships to be available to mixed sex couples.

The legal aspect of either marriage or civil partnership is what the vast majority of our couples want, and we can provide that within a solidly Humanist framework of a fabulous original ceremony.
Whoever marries folk have to go through the same process of signing the Schedule and using the legal wording. Both are wholly secular. Marriage is a state secular thing, sometimes performed by religions (although last year we performed more Legal Marriages than ALL the religions :dance: )

Religions can bleat on all they like about the sanctity of marriage only being for a man and woman. Whilst Scottish Humanist Celebrants and a few more enlightened sects get on with the creative work of legally marrying people who love each-other. Couples are voting with their feet. Some religions are running scared. Don't be scared of their silly pronouncements Coffee, they are fast becoming an anachronism. When English Humanists are eventually allowed to do the legalities the same will occur there.
Bring it on :D

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coffee
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Re: If marriage sound too religious then...

#9 Postby coffee » August 28th, 2016, 1:41 pm

That is very good to know Fia :smile:

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Nick
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Re: If marriage sound too religious then...

#10 Postby Nick » August 31st, 2016, 12:16 am

[quote+"Fia"] last year we performed more Legal Marriages than ALL the religions :dance: )[/quote]Is that more than any one religion, or all religions put together...?

Whichever it is, it is a stunning vindication of humanist marriage ceremonies! :dance: And the sooner it applies in England (and probably Wales..) the better!

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Nick
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Re: If marriage sound too religious then...

#11 Postby Nick » August 31st, 2016, 12:36 am

coffee wrote:If marriage sound too religious then why not just call civil partnerships ceremony or partnerships ceremony or humanist wedding for us non religious, who care whether it need to be recognized by UK law or not when we can go it alone and own the definition of it
In a sense, I think you have this the wrong way round. In the UK, anyone can conduct any ceremony they want, whether it is humanist, Dudeist, Pastafarian or Scientologist. But these are not recognised in law. Which has serious implications for the legal status for the couples concerned.

Legally, it is the legal marriage which is important. For fair reasons, the act of marrying couples has been (fairly safely) delegated to different religious groups, (as well as being performed in non-religious registry offices). So, though a cleric may announce that the happy couple are man and wife, it is ineffective without the relevant signatures, which are generally conducted in a side room (IMO to shield the congregation from the realisation that the rest of the religious ceremony is pretty meaningless...)

For exactly the same reasons, the legal capacity to marry people should be extended to suitable humanists in England, as has been so successfully shown in Scotland.

More generally, I think there is scope for more, legally recognised, relationships between adults. For example, a legal recognition of parental rights and responsibilities between couples who find that marriage doesn't work, or no longer works, for them.

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Fia
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Re: If marriage sound too religious then...

#12 Postby Fia » August 31st, 2016, 6:07 pm

Nick wrote:So, though a cleric may announce that the happy couple are man and wife,
Actually, Nick that would be breaking the law and that cleric would risk going to prison for 8 years if convicted of performing a "sham marriage". Technically any Celebrant using the wording of the legal marriage requirements is an illegal act. It's something I'm sure English Humanist Celebrants are very aware of.

Nick wrote:More generally, I think there is scope for more, legally recognised, relationships between adults. For example, a legal recognition of parental rights and responsibilities between couples who find that marriage doesn't work, or no longer works, for them.
Isn't that what divorce does? If children are under 16 a tailored agreement is usually part of divorce proceedings.

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Re: If marriage sound too religious then...

#13 Postby Nick » September 1st, 2016, 9:22 am

Fia wrote:
Nick wrote:So, though a cleric may announce that the happy couple are man and wife,
Actually, Nick that would be breaking the law and that cleric would risk going to prison for 8 years if convicted of performing a "sham marriage". Technically any Celebrant using the wording of the legal marriage requirements is an illegal act. It's something I'm sure English Humanist Celebrants are very aware of.
Huh? I just don't understand what you mean. :shrug:

Nick wrote:More generally, I think there is scope for more, legally recognised, relationships between adults. For example, a legal recognition of parental rights and responsibilities between couples who find that marriage doesn't work, or no longer works, for them.
Isn't that what divorce does? If children are under 16 a tailored agreement is usually part of divorce proceedings.
And if they have never been married...?

Zeff
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Re: If marriage sound too religious then...

#14 Postby Zeff » September 2nd, 2016, 3:49 pm

I still think that married couples should be treated as two single individuals in law. People should make wills at 18 and marriage need have nothing to do with the State or the law. It can simply be a matter of conscience and whatever anyone wants it to be.

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Fia
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Re: If marriage sound too religious then...

#15 Postby Fia » September 4th, 2016, 5:58 pm

Nick wrote:
Fia wrote:
Nick wrote:So, though a cleric may announce that the happy couple are man and wife,
Actually, Nick that would be breaking the law and that cleric would risk going to prison for 8 years if convicted of performing a "sham marriage". Technically any Celebrant using the wording of the legal marriage requirements is an illegal act. It's something I'm sure English Humanist Celebrants are very aware of.
Huh? I just don't understand what you mean. :shrug:


I'll try again: In a non-legal wedding a celebrant authorised by the Registrar General cannot declare a couple married, use any of the legal terminology or sign anything that looks remotely like the legal marriage schedule. The celebrant can be prosecuted. For performing a "sham" marriage. Penalty is 8 years.
Hope that helps :)


Nick wrote:More generally, I think there is scope for more, legally recognised, relationships between adults. For example, a legal recognition of parental rights and responsibilities between couples who find that marriage doesn't work, or no longer works, for them.
Isn't that what divorce does? If children are under 16 a tailored agreement is usually part of divorce proceedings.
Nick wrote:And if they have never been married...?

You only asked about married couples, Nick.

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Fia
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Re: If marriage sound too religious then...

#16 Postby Fia » September 4th, 2016, 6:12 pm

Zeff wrote: People should make wills at 18 and marriage need have nothing to do with the State or the law. It can simply be a matter of conscience and whatever anyone wants it to be.


Wills at 18? Really Zeff? ( belated :welcome: btw) Like many folk, I think, I only made a will when I had children. The lawyers would love it, with frequent visits to update/change wills over folk's 20s and 30s :D

I have no problem with marriage being part of the state, provided it remains a purely legal thing. In England authorised celebrants are religious or Registrars. The latter, as Humanists in Scotland, provide religion free legal marriages. The legal hoops we all have to jump through are identical. The religions do weddings with lots of mentions of god/s and Humanists tell stories, laugh and cry. Every couple could marry with a Registrar - by far the cheapest option unless an outdoor location on a Saturday. What's interesting is that folk want more than the legalities.

Zeff
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Re: If marriage sound too religious then...

#17 Postby Zeff » September 5th, 2016, 11:38 am

Fia wrote:
Zeff wrote: People should make wills at 18 and marriage need have nothing to do with the State or the law. It can simply be a matter of conscience and whatever anyone wants it to be.


Wills at 18? Really Zeff? ( belated :welcome: btw) Like many folk, I think, I only made a will when I had children. The lawyers would love it, with frequent visits to update/change wills over folk's 20s and 30s :D
Thanks for the welcome and nice to (Virtually) meet you.
Yes, really. Everyone should make a will and keep it up to date. Cheap, simple and trouble-saving, especially these days and it could be even easier and cheaper. The State need have no involvement in marriage. Everyone should love the idea and lawyers are right sometimes too.
As you say, getting married isn't about legalities for many people. Better the law and state not get involved at all. It's only necessary because legislators legislate both for individuals and couples. They should drop the 'couples' bit and save us all a lot of time and money.

Note on registrar fees, quote "we live in lancashire and our registrar fee is £275 just shows how different it is across the country". They seem to range from £110 to about £300?

It would be much cheaper if benefits and tax were done on an individual basis. It is in practice anyway as 'couples' aren't always married to each other. Sometimes the two in a couple are married to other people than each other. The benefits system (at great expense) has to sort all that out in reference to "couples" legislation.

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Nick
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Re: If marriage sound too religious then...

#18 Postby Nick » September 5th, 2016, 12:20 pm

Fia wrote:I'll try again: In a non-legal wedding a celebrant authorised by the Registrar General cannot declare a couple married, use any of the legal terminology or sign anything that looks remotely like the legal marriage schedule. The celebrant can be prosecuted. For performing a "sham" marriage. Penalty is 8 years.
Hope that helps :)
Er.... maybe I'm being dim! I'm now confused by your response! If a celebrant is authorised by the Registrar General, surely that means they are authorised to conduct legal weddings. Why would such a person conduct a non-legal one and declare them legally married...?

I am not advocating that a celebrant conducts a varied "marriage" of the sort I suggested; that would not be legally effective. I am suggesting that alternatives should be legally available (though we might not want to call them marriages). Is this where the confusion lies...?


Nick wrote:More generally, I think there is scope for more, legally recognised, relationships between adults. For example, a legal recognition of parental rights and responsibilities between couples who find that marriage doesn't work, or no longer works, for them.
Isn't that what divorce does? If children are under 16 a tailored agreement is usually part of divorce proceedings.
Nick wrote:And if they have never been married...?

You only asked about married couples, Nick.
I thought I had implied that, but maybe should have written wouldn't work, rather than doesn't work. I added "or no longer works" to make that distinction.

No matter, as one closer to marriages than most of us, what do you think of my suggestion?


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