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Sexual consent can be withdrawn at any point

Enter here to explore ethical issues and discuss the meaning and source of morality.
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coffee
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Joined: June 2nd, 2009, 4:53 pm

Sexual consent can be withdrawn at any point

#1 Postby coffee » May 29th, 2016, 3:47 pm

Sexual consent is not as simple as saying 'yes' – it's time young people understood that
Just because you consent to one thing, you do not consent to everything. Sexual consent can be withdrawn at any point


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/sex ... 52811.html



As the next generation of freshers finish their A-Level exams and prepare for a new life at university, it's likely that, when they arrive on campus, they will be forced to attend controversial classes about sexual consent.

Although it’s easy to say “I know what rape is, and I’m not a rapist”, it’s sad but telling that every girl I spoke to about consent had her own story: an anecdote that comes out after one too many drinks. The girl said yes to sex, but then something happened which wasn’t strictly consensual.

There are a range of schemes to help young people understand consent, such as handing out consent kits, but these are failing to protect the very people they are designed to help. Every discussion surrounding consent seems to centre on the simple “no means no” rule, but sex isn’t that straightforward. Just because you consent to one thing, you do not consent to everything. Consent can be withdrawn at any point.


READ MORE
The 'chilli tampon' video is an advert for assault

“I was on a first date with this guy and we got really really drunk,” says Jenny. “He just ‘happened’ to miss his train, and I didn’t feel very comfortable because I felt like it was a deliberate thing. He asked if he could come back to mine. I wasn’t very happy about it but I agreed, being only 19 at the time, and we were in the middle of having sex when I sobered up and it just hit me. I’d been that drunk, and it was just happening. I remember nearly crying and him asking if I was OK, but for some reason I said I was and he continued.”

Sadly, stories like Jenny’s are all too familiar. They would never go as far as to say they’d been raped, but had they consented? It isn’t quite clear.

Sophie, 23, had been sleeping with a guy regularly. “We’d been on a date, and we knew where the night was going; we’d had sex before,” she said. “We went back to mine and were having sex, when all of a sudden he put his hands around my throat. I said no and he took his hand off, saying there was ‘no harm in trying’. I should’ve stopped, but the gravity of what happened didn’t hit me until I told my friends about it.”



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Sexual violence in schools

Another girl told me she would have sex with her boyfriend even when it wasn’t something she wanted. While she wouldn’t say she was raped, she’s unsure whether or not she consented. “It just kind of proves how not black-and-white consent is,” she said, “how confusing it is.”

There are evidently enormous holes in modern sex education. Former government adviser, Steve Hilton, suggested last week that one way to protect children from sex is to take their smartphones off them. A couple of months ago, the Government was in a flap over the alarming number of teenagers trying anal sex without proper education. But you can only teach so much about consent.

Lad Culture workshops, consent classes and kits with condoms and a piece of card to sign are a good place to start – but they will never cover the full complexity of sex and consent.

More focus needs to be placed on personal confidence, communication and respect. We need to educate boys and girls about respecting their sexual partners, about knowing their sexual limits, and having the ability to say when they are uncomfortable with something.

The answer isn’t as simple as 'no means no'.

Some names have been changed for privacy

More about: consentrapeUniversityrelationships




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Dave B
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Re: Sexual consent can be withdrawn at any point

#2 Postby Dave B » May 29th, 2016, 4:08 pm

For some strange reason I was thinking about this sort if thing early this am.

"No", is "No" at any point in any kind of relationship. Ignoring that leads to at keast assault and at worst rape. And the full weight of the law should be applied in all cases,
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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coffee
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Re: Sexual consent can be withdrawn at any point

#3 Postby coffee » May 29th, 2016, 4:22 pm

"No", is "No" at any point in any kind of relationship. Ignoring that leads to at keast assault and at worst rape. And the full weight of the law should be applied in all cases,


Agree

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Alan H
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Re: Sexual consent can be withdrawn at any point

#4 Postby Alan H » May 29th, 2016, 7:19 pm

This, from Thames Valey Police, is good:

Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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animist
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Re: Sexual consent can be withdrawn at any point

#5 Postby animist » May 29th, 2016, 10:45 pm

Alan H wrote:This, from Thames Valey Police, is good:


I am not sure the analogy between the sexual urge and the desire to see someone drinking a cup of tea is a realistic one, unless you are Mrs Doyle from "Father Ted", but at least the bit about expecting sex today because one's partner agreed to it the other day is fair enough

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Dave B
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Re: Sexual consent can be withdrawn at any point

#6 Postby Dave B » May 30th, 2016, 3:07 am

animist wrote:
Alan H wrote:This, from Thames Valey Police, is good:


I am not sure the analogy between the sexual urge and the desire to see someone drinking a cup of tea is a realistic one, unless you are Mrs Doyle from "Father Ted", but at least the bit about expecting sex today because one's partner agreed to it the other day is fair enough

Hmm, thought it might be tsilored to an audience other than the likes of us, animist? One hopes that thinking people would think twice anyway, though I doubt the police records actually support that hypothesis!

Those with a less philosophical outlook on life might be more "educated" by such an approach.

That all sounds terribly elitist but I hope you know what I mean - if that video works on one person it is an achievement.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan H
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Re: Sexual consent can be withdrawn at any point

#7 Postby Alan H » May 30th, 2016, 9:50 am

It's certainly a vast improvement on some of the ham-fisted attempts by the police in the past!
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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animist
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Re: Sexual consent can be withdrawn at any point

#8 Postby animist » May 31st, 2016, 8:17 pm

Dave B wrote:"No", is "No" at any point in any kind of relationship. Ignoring that leads to at keast assault and at worst rape. And the full weight of the law should be applied in all cases,
what you say is true, but it is not the whole story, The problem is that if both parties are drunk, the woman may not be capable of saying "no", and the question then arises about consent. Should a man be imprisoned for rape in such a case? I don't know, but the Ched Evans case does seem to point to the many problems involved in the concept of consent; it is easy to say that rape is rape, and the full weight of the law should be applied, but in fact what constitutes rape is a genuine problem. And, after all, humanists don't simply say "murder is murder" and demand uniform sentencing, do they?

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Dave B
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Re: Sexual consent can be withdrawn at any point

#9 Postby Dave B » May 31st, 2016, 8:42 pm

Good point, animist.

If both parties are drunk and neither is capable making a positive refusal to sex from the other then apportioning "blame" becomes very fraught. My case us correct where both parties are in posossion of a complete set of faculties - able to make a decision based on their own wishes. Should one party try to forcibly overcome the other's resistance, regardless of gender or the nature of the relationship this is, surely, a crime?

If both are intoxicated on any kind of substance, well, there are so many factors that should be looked st a vourt case seems inevitable. Age, experience of life, upbringing, education, IQ etc can make one, or maybe even both, parties "natural victims".

If the intoxification was "forced" on one party by the other, then became mutual, that initial action is the possible crime and the sex subsiduary yet morally the more important? Force was not used directly in gaining the sexual act but may have been eitger the intention or a coincidental outcome.

This, of course, asks more questions than it answers!

[Hope that nakes sense, I am still in some pain, have a stinking head ache, had a busy day driving around for tests and medicines and have been missing sleep. Now have max legal presription dose of codeine for tonight (will only use it at night), hope it works!]
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015


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