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Horsing around

Enter here to explore ethical issues and discuss the meaning and source of morality.
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Alan H
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Horsing around

#1 Postby Alan H » January 17th, 2013, 1:49 pm

All the jokes have been on Twitter in the last 24 hours, unbridled, and it's too late to bolt the stable door, but for you carnivores, does eating horse bother you? If so, why? Should Tescos be prosecuted?


OK, here's one from John Prescot:
Today I'll be raising the horseburger issue in parliament and demanding an urgent steward's inquiry


A woman has been taken to hospital after eating #horsemeat #burgers. Her condition is said to be stable.
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Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Altfish
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Re: Horsing around

#2 Postby Altfish » January 17th, 2013, 2:03 pm

Just sat here reading the contents of this Tesco burger box, seems to be low in fat but high in Shergar.

Despite the recent news, Tesco's report that burger sales are stable

I've found it tough lately working on tescos meat counter.....
I just feel like I'm flogging a dead horse.

If you've had a Tesco burger recently don't worry it's all part of a stable diet, but you may get the trotts.

After the Tesco ''horse in burgers'' scandal, Primark have had a ''camel toe'' in their leggings

Just been to the fridge to check on the beef burgers I got from Tesco....AND THEY'RE OFF

They asked me what I wanted on my burger - I said £5 each way.

Or, as Morrissey nearly said "Meat is Red Rum"...

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Altfish
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Re: Horsing around

#3 Postby Altfish » January 17th, 2013, 2:04 pm

Oops, sorry, didn't see the links :redface:

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Fia
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Re: Horsing around

#4 Postby Fia » January 17th, 2013, 2:31 pm

If you are daft enough to eat cheap processed meat - much of it mechanically recovered - you shouldn't be surprised what's in it.

With apologies to vegetarians it doesn't bother me eating horse and have enjoyed it many times in France. If I had to kill it myself, that would be a different matter. I can cope with despatching chickens and fish but horses are so darn big. Much eating on them that's probably going to waste though. The beeb reckoned it's because so many horses are pets that some are squeamish. And emotional connotations and the fact they they are used as transport, which I really don't get...

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Alan H
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Re: Horsing around

#5 Postby Alan H » January 17th, 2013, 2:39 pm

Maybe not that common these days, but some people eat rabbits, which are probably far more common as pets that horses. Also, some keep chickens.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Re: Horsing around

#6 Postby Dave B » January 17th, 2013, 6:23 pm

As a life long dedicated omnivore I too have eaten horse. A girlfriend who was working in France and whom I was visiting served me steaks and only told me what it was when I was half way through - she was disappointed when I said, truthfully, that I was enjoying it!

I always thought serving up horse meat was illegal in Britain - but it seems that a French restaurant serves it as steaks and steak tartare.

If Tescos, or anyone else, was knowingly selling one thing labelled as another then they deserve to be severely punished. If they were aware that contamination could take place then they should be punished if they have not stated this. If they have been duped by an unscrupulous first hand supplier then they need something to wake them up and improve their QC and QA - maybe a nominal fine. They need to follow the trail back through second and third hand suppliers and made to publish what they find and what remedies they are going to take against such happening again. Those more remote suppliers will have to look after themselves legally if they have broken any rules or have sloppy systems. IMHO.

Added later:
Grauniad article on this and horse meat in general.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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getreal
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Re: Horsing around

#7 Postby getreal » January 17th, 2013, 7:38 pm

I have no objection to eating horse meat and have in the past. So long as it (and any other meat I eat) is ethically produced, I don't have a problem.

What I can't understand, though is that on thenwake of the BSE scare, I thought all meat sold in the UK had to be traceable back to the farm (and indeed, animal) of origin.
page 11.
http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/ ... idance.pdf


From my reading, it would appear that everyone the chain is only required to know where they got the products fromn and to whom they passed it

the only information Article 18 requires food business
operators to provide is the name of businesses who supply them and to
whom they supply their products, i.e. one step back – one step forward
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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demi
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Re: Horsing around

#8 Postby demi » January 17th, 2013, 7:46 pm

That's what you get for buying that horrible cheap meat. Personally i don't care what kind of animal i eat as long as i like it and it's good quality. Pig, sheep, cow, rabbit, horse......it's all the same, if it tastes good and it's proper quality meat i'll eat it. I'v never tried horse meat but would probably give it a go if i was given the opportunity.
Tesco however, and the other supermarkets in question, have lied on their packaging. False advertising, isn't that against the law? They should be punished accordingly and steps should be taken to better monitor what goes into their products.

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demi
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Re: Horsing around

#9 Postby demi » January 17th, 2013, 7:50 pm

getreal wrote:I have no objection to eating horse meat and have in the past. So long as it (and any other meat I eat) is ethically produced, I don't have a problem.

What I can't understand, though is that on thenwake of the BSE scare, I thought all meat sold in the UK had to be traceable back to the farm (and indeed, animal) of origin.
page 11.
http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/ ... idance.pdf


From my reading, it would appear that everyone the chain is only required to know where they got the products fromn and to whom they passed it

the only information Article 18 requires food business
operators to provide is the name of businesses who supply them and to
whom they supply their products, i.e. one step back – one step forward



When did you eat horse? Was it good? What was it most similar too?



This is another reason for us producing our own food. So we know exactly what goes in it, it's fresh, organic, and for the animals, raised ethically and healthily.

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Dave B
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Re: Horsing around

#10 Postby Dave B » January 17th, 2013, 8:15 pm

demi wrote:That's what you get for buying that horrible cheap meat. Personally i don't care what kind of animal i eat as long as i like it and it's good quality. Pig, sheep, cow, rabbit, horse......it's all the same, if it tastes good and it's proper quality meat i'll eat it. I'v never tried horse meat but would probably give it a go if i was given the opportunity.
Tesco however, and the other supermarkets in question, have lied on their packaging. False advertising, isn't that against the law? They should be punished accordingly and steps should be taken to better monitor what goes into their products.
[My bold]

Demi, I am not a fan of Tesco but when you say they have lied on their packaging do you mean in this case alone or in others?

If you sell a finished product, "assembled" from materials you have put a specification on, then label that final product accordingly - you have not lied if those prime suppliers sell you duff stuff, to the best of your knowledge it was the real thing. Large supermarkets audit their products regularly, but in this case the trail seems to lead back through several levels and maybe countries.

This is not the first time this sort of thing has happened. Years ago a rogue group got hold of many tons of condemned chicken meat. They bleached it (using chlorine compounds) then used forbidden chemicals to tenderise it. Then they minced, cubed or whatever the meat and sold it to the mega-kitchens who make the pies etc. for the supermarkets. They almost got away with it but some of the products still got to customers. The supermarkets were found not to blame but were told to sort out their quality systems.

As I said above, if any sellers knew of the horse meat they need to be hit very hard, so that it hurts. If they were duped they need to tighten their quality audit systems and the contracts they issue.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan H
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Re: Horsing around

#11 Postby Alan H » January 17th, 2013, 11:21 pm

I agree with Dave: ISTM that Tescos would not knowingly have sold horse meat. I think the public reaction was entirely predictable (especially some of the jokes). I doesn't seem plausible to me that Tesco was aware of they were buying horse meat. I think the only way to tell is to test its DNA - as was done in this case by the Irish FSA. However, it certainly does mean that someone, somewhere in the supply chain did know and that needs to be sorted out.

However, as a veggie who wouldn't eat it in the first place, I think we should remember that that has never been a food safety issue. If the meat was contaminated, then that would be a completely different matter.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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demi
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Re: Horsing around

#12 Postby demi » January 18th, 2013, 7:03 am

I don't know if Tesco knew about the horse meat. But as was said above someone along the line did. Tesco need to keep better track of what they're buying.

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Altfish
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Re: Horsing around

#13 Postby Altfish » January 18th, 2013, 8:59 am

It seems to me that supermarkets and the like are never fully held accountable for what they sell. They always seem to get away with a statement along the lines of, “It was the fault of our supplier in _____*”
I’m sorry but that does not excuse the cock-up. If you are sourcing your products from afar (or near for that matter) you should have regular, random auditable checks of what they are supplying you with. It is obvious that Tesco and the others just take the product from the delivery wagon and stick it on the shelf. The finances of the company rely on exceptionally fast turnover of shelf space and a visual check will suffice.

I hope the supermarkets get fined in a huge manner which will make them do regular checks on the quality of their product.


(* = insert country, usually in 3rd world)

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Dave B
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Re: Horsing around

#14 Postby Dave B » January 18th, 2013, 9:33 am

demi wrote:I don't know if Tesco knew about the horse meat. But as was said above someone along the line did. Tesco need to keep better track of what they're buying.
We have similar tracking problems with cheap products, Primark got publicly caned because - despite their avowed intentions, some of their products were made with child and sweat labour.

If criminal prime suppliers want to cheat the system they will find ways of doing so, there is only so much the sellers can do in terms of applying "commercial intelligence" to the matter. Perhaps a whole new industry of commercial detectives will grow from these events (if it has not already) to do undercover investigations of sourcing and manufacturing. Probably be about as dangerous as military intelligence as well!

But, quality costs - even when "everyday Basics" are concerned - prices will rise to cover it and no company is going to take the risk until they all do.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan H
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Re: Horsing around

#15 Postby Alan H » January 18th, 2013, 10:17 am

demi wrote:This is another reason for us producing our own food. So we know exactly what goes in it, it's fresh, organic, and for the animals, raised ethically and healthily.
I don't think we can ever produce all our own food - I don't think we have the land space for it these days. I understand what you imply about food miles and I think people are paying more attention to where their food comes from. Also about animals being kept ethically and healthily - although we undoubtedly have pretty high animal welfare standards and certainly higher than some other countries. But why organic?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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demi
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Re: Horsing around

#16 Postby demi » January 18th, 2013, 7:11 pm

Alan H wrote:
demi wrote:This is another reason for us producing our own food. So we know exactly what goes in it, it's fresh, organic, and for the animals, raised ethically and healthily.
I don't think we can ever produce all our own food - I don't think we have the land space for it these days. I understand what you imply about food miles and I think people are paying more attention to where their food comes from. Also about animals being kept ethically and healthily - although we undoubtedly have pretty high animal welfare standards and certainly higher than some other countries. But why organic?



Why organic?

Because pesticides harm the local ecosystems. The insecticides kill all of the bugs, good ones as well as the bad ones. There are predator insects which eat the pests and they get killed off too. The insects also build resistance to them so you have to change what you're using and use stronger solutions to be effective. Synthetic fertilizers wash into the rivers causing algae blooms which use up all the oxygen and block out the sunlight killing the other species in the river. It's also expensive to buy these products. As well as the potential health risks posed to my husband as it's him that's having to spray. My husband sprays the fruit trees that we sell the fruit from. He doesn't spray all the trees. He only sprays the fruit trees because we cannot sell fruit with worms ( nobody will buy ). The cherry trees are the worst and he always sprays them heavily to prevent cherry fly which seems to be impossible to completely prevent. The other trees he would only spray if he sees a particular pest ( he's an agronomist ) which he knows will damage the fruit. The pesticides he uses are contact pesticides, they kill on contact then it washes away in a day or too and he only sprays infected trees. We don't use anything on our veg or fruit for us, only on the stuff to get sold if it is infected with a pest.
On areas of incentive agriculture using pesticides the ground water is being polluted buy the chemicals. They are stable molecules and they are slow to decompose and residues have been found in the water table. DDT AND PCB's have been found in whales, it's classed as a possible human carcinogen : http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/factsheet ... status.htm although it's banned today, residues are still found in the environment. Other insecticides that are used today have similar stable molecular components which also get washed into the ground water same as DDT.
Also it uses more fossil fuels to produce and transport and by buying these pesticides you are supporting big corporations in the global market, supporting a factory which produces chemicals which are harmful for the environment. And it's just overall more green and we all have to do our bit to help our planet. And don't forget to take your canvas bags to the supermarket! :)

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Alan H
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Re: Horsing around

#17 Postby Alan H » January 18th, 2013, 7:21 pm

But aren't organic methods far less efficient and unable to replace current methods?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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demi
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Joined: January 16th, 2013, 1:14 pm

Re: Horsing around

#18 Postby demi » January 18th, 2013, 7:37 pm

Alan H wrote:But aren't organic methods far less efficient and unable to replace current methods?





Yes, on a large scale. On a small scale you can maintain a relativity pest free farm without having to intensively spray, or spray at all. There are also organic treatments for pests and fungi which are effective on small scale. Supporting organic production from small scale farming is supporting your local economy instead of the big corporations. The more small scale farmers you support you encourage and promote organic farming and other farmers will change to organic production moving away from mono cultures, which organic methods don't work well on, and reducing the need for pesticides in the first place.

Why do you think governments give subsidies to small scale farmers and not to large scale industrial farmers that produce mono-cultures?

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anaconda
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Re: Horsing around

#19 Postby anaconda » January 18th, 2013, 9:12 pm

I can recommend Sainsburys spicy beanburgers.
John

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getreal
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Re: Horsing around

#20 Postby getreal » January 18th, 2013, 9:20 pm

Why do you think governments give subsidies to small scale farmers and not to large scale industrial farmers that produce mono-cultures?



I don't think this is correct. The single farm subsidy is based on the size of the farm-the more hectares, the more subsidy.

I'm not aware of any subsidies to organic or small producers (unless in the case of crofting, but that is entierly different and the reasons behind the support given to crofters is unique. I'm not sure they recieve actual monetary subsidies, though, but they do get a lot of "soft" support)
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.


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