Horsing around

[getreal]

Latest post of the previous page:

Why do you think governments give subsidies to small scale farmers and not to large scale industrial farmers that produce mono-cultures?

I don't think this is correct. The single farm subsidy is based on the size of the farm-the more hectares, the more subsidy.

I'm not aware of any subsidies to organic or small producers (unless in the case of crofting, but that is entierly different and the reasons behind the support given to crofters is unique. I'm not sure they recieve actual monetary subsidies, though, but they do get a lot of "soft" support)

[Alan C.]

Alan H
I don't think we can ever produce all our own food - I don't think we have the land space for it these days.

I think we do if you include meat.

Alan H wrote:
But aren't organic methods far less efficient and unable to replace current methods?

I only have 1/3 of an acre but I can produce (organically) 90% (approx) what we eat. The other 10% comes from local, organically produced meat. That's for two people, (plus the small amount I sell ( barter) do the maths,
Growing organically doesn't cost more (probably less) due to not having to purchase expensive chemicals, it just takes a bit more effort. Trouble is, factory farming and effort shouldn't be in the same sentence.

I've got tomato and cucumber seedlings just starting to peep through, happy days

[Alan H]

A calculation:

The area of the UK is 243,610 km2 and a population of 63,181,775, giving everyone 0.0038557 km2, which is 3,855 m2 or just under one acre. However, that includes an awful lot of mountains and land we live on!

[demi]

Why do you think governments give subsidies to small scale farmers and not to large scale industrial farmers that produce mono-cultures?

I don't think this is correct. The single farm subsidy is based on the size of the farm-the more hectares, the more subsidy.

I'm not aware of any subsidies to organic or small producers (unless in the case of crofting, but that is entierly different and the reasons behind the support given to crofters is unique. I'm not sure they recieve actual monetary subsidies, though, but they do get a lot of "soft" support)

This is what Jane's told me. They give subsidies in the form of organic pesticides to small scale farmers and give them a timetable and tell them to spray then, then, and then. Inspectors then come to check the organic methods are being followed, i assume by looking at the farm and taking samples from the soil. Everything being well they get the organic certificate and are able to sell their food as organic. The governments are trying to encourage organic and sustainable agriculture and support small scale farming. I don't know specifically about the government in the UK, but this is what's being done in Europe.


Most people have some space in their garden which they would be able to turn into a vegetable plot. Allotments and communal growing areas are also provided by local authorities for people without a garden, although there is usually a long waiting list. It is true that there are too many people in the world to feed, which is why large scale mono culture farming will always exist. Now there is also the issue of GMO, genetically engineered crops made resistant to pests and fungi eliminating the need for pesticides and fungicides and creating 'super crops' able to withstand droughts and floods with the potential to feed the entire world. But there is a whole other ethical debate that goes along with that. What would happen if these genetically engineered crops got released into the local environment, and what effect would they have on the eco systems? They are still working these things out.

[demi]

Why do you think governments give subsidies to small scale farmers and not to large scale industrial farmers that produce mono-cultures?

I don't think this is correct. The single farm subsidy is based on the size of the farm-the more hectares, the more subsidy.

I'm not aware of any subsidies to organic or small producers (unless in the case of crofting, but that is entierly different and the reasons behind the support given to crofters is unique. I'm not sure they recieve actual monetary subsidies, though, but they do get a lot of "soft" support)

This is what Jane's told me. They give subsidies in the form of organic pesticides to small scale farmers and give them a timetable and tell them to spray then, then, and then. Inspectors then come to check the organic methods are being followed by looking at the farm and taking samples from the soil. Everything being well they get the organic certificate and are able to sell their food as organic. The governments are trying to encourage organic and sustainable agriculture and support small scale farming. I don't know specifically about the government in the UK, but this is what's being done in Europe.


Most people have some space in their garden which they would be able to turn into a vegetable plot. Allotments and communal growing areas are also provided by local authorities for people without a garden, although there is usually a long waiting list.

There is also GMO, genetically engineered crops made resistant to pests and fungi eliminating the need for pesticides and fungicides and creating 'super crops' able to withstand droughts and floods with the potential to feed the entire world. But there is a whole other ethical debate that goes along with that. What would happen if these genetically engineered crops got released into the local environment, and what effect would they have on the eco systems? That is a huge ethical debate.

There are large scale organic farms in places like Australia where they have good growing conditions and funds available to invest. The governments give subsidies to these large scale farmers. They have bio domes where they are able to control the environment and release predictor insects like spiders and ladybugs to eat the pests. They have pheromone traps which attract certain insect pests which then get stuck to sticky tape. They also selectively breed only the healthy plants to create more disease resistant crops. They have greenhouses next to power stations which take the waste C02, which would normally get released into the atmosphere, and pump it through pipes into the greenhouses where the plants covert it to oxygen ( how clever is that! ). And the greenhouses are becoming more sealed like bio domes restricting insects from coming in or out vents and heating controlling the temperatures and the air. Greenhouses can be much bigger than biodomes which are expensive. They have many ways to do things organically on larger scale.

Here is some info 'can organic farming feed the world?' : http://www.worldwatch.org/node/4060

Carbon Dioxide in greenhouses: http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/cro ... 00-077.htm

[demi]

I can recommend Sainsburys spicy beanburgers.

Ooh i like them too!

[getreal]

What have I told you about providing sources for information?

They give subsidies in the form of organic pesticides to small scale farmers and give them a timetable and tell them to spray then, then, and then. Inspectors then come to check the organic methods are being followed by looking at the farm and taking samples from the soil. Everything being well they get the organic certificate and are able to sell their food as organic. The governments are trying to encourage organic and sustainable agriculture and support small scale farming. I don't know specifically about the government in the UK, but this is what's being done in Europe.

Source, please!
(Sheesh! Kids today, eh?)

[Dave B]

^
That's the downside of coming onto the same forum as your mum, Demi

Edit on re-read:

This is what Jane's told me.

Demi, is that Janes as in the data/info publishers?

[demi]

Jane is my source, he's got a degree in this stuff!

Right hold on.......

[demi]

Here about subsidies : http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-agricu ... sidies.htm

"Agricultural subsidies are monies given to farmers to support their operations. Subsidies may be provided directly, in the form of cash payments, or they may take the form of indirect support. For example, a government might provide low-cost crop insurance, keep prices at an artificial level, or assist farmers in other ways. Agricultural subsidies are a feature of many government budgets, and a topic of hot debate in some regions of the world."


It doesn't go into much detail about specific subsidies because each government decides what they will give depending on what's needed and their budget. But it says 'assist farmers in other ways' and providing organic pesticides is one of those other ways.

About inspection for organic farming: http://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic ... ication_en

"It is very important that every farmer, processor and importer in the organic farming supply chain is inspected at least once a year to ensure their compliance with the regulation.
This process is supervised by each EU Member State, which is responsible for establishing an inspection system with competent authorities to ensure adherence to the obligations established in the organic Regulation."

Again is doesn't go into specific details on how they inspect the farms. It's very difficult to find that specific information. But i trust Jane knows what he's talking about seeing he has a degree in agronomy and sustainable agriculture and has studied these things in detail, more detail than i can find on a google search.

[demi]

^
That's the downside of coming onto the same forum as your mum, Demi

Edit on re-read:

This is what Jane's told me.

Demi, is that Janes as in the data/info publishers?

No, Jane is my husband, pronounced 'yan-eh'. He is a good source of info

[getreal]

The second link you provided says nothing about subsidies. I apperciate your comment about governments setting their own, but you have still to prove that small farmers recieve more subsidy than large.

From my understanding, it is actually the exact opposite; under the current CAP single farm payment, large farmers do better out of subsidies
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/farmi ... troduction

[demi]

The second link you provided says nothing about subsidies. I apperciate your comment about governments setting their own, but you have still to prove that small farmers recieve more subsidy than large.

From my understanding, it is actually the exact opposite; under the current CAP single farm payment, large farmers do better out of subsidies
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/farmi ... troduction

You are confused with the land ratios . If someone has a large amount of land and is getting some subsidies per acre versus a guy with 2 acres of land doing organic, normally the industrial ( integrated ) farmer will get more subsidies as an amount because he/she has more land (he is more likely to pay more tax as well) . In Macedonia, subsidies for tobacco were given ( 1 euro per kilo of processed tobacco ) , which is completely wrong as they promote the industrial production and the grey economy because most of the tobacco workers work cash in hands and avoid paying tax . In many cases the subsidies are connected with the political issues of a certain country .A proper organic farmer follows a program for production ( which chemicals to use and when... ) and the subsidies can come in many different forms (materials and so on ) even from individual company's that have contracts with the producers.


"under vegetable initiative, the farmers are being provided 75 per cent subsidy for taking up organic farming."
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... initiative


"In addition to subsidies that are bound to the implementation of specific measures, organic farmers sometimes receive general financial support from their government because it is now widely acknowledged that organic agriculture, as a holistic production system, brings many positive externalities to society and avoids many negative impacts, such as water pollution and depletion of soil fertility. Governments have therefore started to realize that by spending a bit of extra money on organic farmers, they will avoid many other costs (e.g., pollution-related costs) and will help rural development by keeping farmers on the land and keeping the rural landscape attractive to everyone. "
http://www.ifoam.org/growing_organic/1_ ... _no38.html


Across the world governments are turning to organic farming and offering more and more intensives to encourage farmers to change to organic farming. Every government offers different subsidies so what they have in Scotland is not necessarily the same else where. Outside companies also play a role in offering subsidies to organic farmers. There is extra subsidies in India just for women organic farmers, or subsidies for cutting the grass late after the breeding season of local wildlife, or for maintaining hedge rows, rivers and trees on the land ect ect. The subsidies come in many forms, not just money per acre. Organic farmers also get more money for their organic products.

[Alan H]

So, the perpetrators have been sentenced today: an £8,000 fine for one and a suspended sentence for another. The crimes were not about selling horse meat per se, but for failing to comply with food traceability regulations.

I don't know what their turnover was, but surely it must have been thousands a week. Is this a derisory sentence and does it deter others - or even deter these two from doing it again?

[Dave B]

So, the perpetrators have been sentenced today: an £8,000 fine for one and a suspended sentence for another. The crimes were not about selling horse meat per se, but for failing to comply with food traceability regulations.

I don't know what their turnover was, but surely it must have been thousands a week. Is this a derisory sentence and does it deter others - or even deter these two from doing it again?

I think that it is an apallingly light "punishment", a lifetime ban on working, in any capacity, in the food inustry and/or ten times that amount.might be more appropriate.

Any crimes that involves any possible danger to the public via the food they handle should attract harsh punishment as a deterent. Perhaps they could use the fines to re-employ some of the inspectors they have probably rationalised away!

[Alan H]

So, the perpetrators have been sentenced today: an £8,000 fine for one and a suspended sentence for another. The crimes were not about selling horse meat per se, but for failing to comply with food traceability regulations.

I don't know what their turnover was, but surely it must have been thousands a week. Is this a derisory sentence and does it deter others - or even deter these two from doing it again?

I think that it is an apallingly light "punishment", a lifetime ban on working, in any capacity, in the food inustry and/or ten times that amount.might be more appropriate.

Any crimes that involves any possible danger to the public via the food they handle should attract harsh punishment as a deterent. Perhaps they could use the fines to re-employ some of the inspectors they have probably rationalised away!

I don't think there was any hazard to health per se - after all, they weren't prosecuted for that, just (essentially) a lack of paperwork. Anyway, although the Tories have drastically cut funding to the FSA, £8,000 wouldn't very go far - although it would pay someone on minimum wage for 30 weeks.

[Dave B]

I was thinkjng £80 000 level fines (or more) as a funding source.

Perhaps we can take a lead from the US local police agencies here - fund the judiciary through fines alone, encourage the high level ones!

(Just making sure you know that last is TIC.)

[Dave B]

Just hearing on R4 that the guy fined had a licence to process and sell horse meat and that the restaurants involved knew what they were buying. So that bit was legal, what the restaurants sold it as is another matter!

However, he did not keep proper records of the source of the meat - that is where the potential danger to end uders is.

[thundril]

I don't know if Tesco knew about the horse meat. But as was said above someone along the line did. Tesco need to keep better track of what they're buying.

We have similar tracking problems with cheap products, Primark got publicly caned because - despite their avowed intentions, some of their products were made with child . .

:supershock: My God! And people are angry about eating horse?

[Dave B]

Oops