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does anyone really care about global warming?

Enter here to explore ethical issues and discuss the meaning and source of morality.
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Dave B
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Re: does anyone really care about global warming?

#201 Postby Dave B » October 9th, 2013, 5:22 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Tetenterre wrote:
Dave B wrote:Didn't say that the Chinese had achieved any kind of kilowatts/person ratio that equated to the West, just that they have the largest population and complete a new power station every few days according to some sources, mostly coal fired.
... and which produce energy for industries that make consumer goods that are largely for consumption by "the West".

This is typical of incoherent UK government policy: the so-called "Climate Change Levy" has effectively shifted jobs from the UK, where energy is produced relatively cleanly, into countries where energy production is far more polluting. And they tell us it's purpose is to reduce CO2 emissions: it increases them!

Yup!
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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jaywhat
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Re: does anyone really care about global warming?

#202 Postby jaywhat » October 10th, 2013, 8:45 am

animist wrote:
jaywhat wrote:Over geological time, whatever that is, the world has frozen and sweated to a huge degree(!) So what. It will happen again and there is nowt we can do about it.

yes but the point of the global warming concern is that it appears that, since we are causing warming, there is something we can do to stop this


Yes ! by a few degrees, but the earth in any case is due for another ice age next so why bother.

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Alan H
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Re: does anyone really care about global warming?

#203 Postby Alan H » October 10th, 2013, 9:47 am

jaywhat wrote:Yes ! by a few degrees, but the earth in any case is due for another ice age next so why bother.
Because we don't know when it will happen (could be centuries away yet) and we don't know how severe it will be; we don't even know it will happen!
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

etoile
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Re: does anyone really care about global warming?

#204 Postby etoile » October 10th, 2013, 11:27 am

animist wrote: thanks for not reacting more strongly to my tone - I am very interested in this topic (but am not a scientist either) and get a bit carried away sometimes . I will come back to your other points later


Of course, no problem, and ditto :D

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animist
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Re: does anyone really care about global warming?

#205 Postby animist » October 10th, 2013, 5:47 pm

Alan H wrote:
jaywhat wrote:Yes ! by a few degrees, but the earth in any case is due for another ice age next so why bother.
Because we don't know when it will happen (could be centuries away yet) and we don't know how severe it will be; we don't even know it will happen!

actually, contemplating a future ice age might be an extra reason for taking action now on AGW. Most obviously, the longer we can leave these precious fossil fuel resources in the ground instead of squandering them, not only do we avoid climate change now but we have something to fall back on if ever natural changes do indeed seem to be going in the direction of cooling rather than warming. Plus, the attention now rightly being given to the AGW question should prepare us for some contrary natural change, and if, by some miracle, our fossil fuel output does actually decline and the warming comes under control, we will know more certainly for the future that global warming CAN be caused by human agency, intentionally or not

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Dave B
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Re: does anyone really care about global warming?

#206 Postby Dave B » October 10th, 2013, 5:56 pm

Hmm, thinking about a future Ice Age . . .

One of the reasons the UK is so pleasant in it weather (compared with other places!) is because of the Atlantic Conveyor - AKA "The Gulf Stream".

The reason that works is because there is/was a lot of ice at the North Pole, the cold current from the melt water, heading south, drew up warm water heading north. Reduced ice at the Pole may result in reduced flow in the Conveyor. That will mean a much reduced temperature, to possibly Arctic levels in Scotland (they will need ALL that N. Sea gas to keep warm.)

Buy your thermal undies, fleeces and quilted clothing now before the demand puts the prices sky high!
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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draykorinee
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Re: does anyone really care about global warming?

#207 Postby draykorinee » October 10th, 2013, 6:45 pm

I like the cold more than the heat, but an ice age is pushing it. I dont pretend to know the science behind GW, I just try to do my bit, recycling walking/cycling etc I just don't see it making any difference its just making me feel like Im doing something.
sanctimonious
ˌsaŋ(k)tɪˈməʊnɪəs/Submit
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Fia
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Re: does anyone really care about global warming?

#208 Postby Fia » October 10th, 2013, 10:14 pm

I'm enjoying and learning from this thread, but I do have a comment:

Whether or not global warming / cooling happens surely the main point is that human beings need to change our grossly unequal and prolific use of energy and resources. A fortune was spent enabling data to be sent in slightly fewer microseconds to 'improve' the banking industry, yet all our planet's citizens still don't have a roof, sanitation, clean water, food, healthcare, education or dignity.
Surely a civilised global society should have basic human needs as a priority. Sadly, we are not so civilised.

I think the question we should be asking is how can we change this appalling state of affairs in a sustainable way.
TRS cartoon bank.jpg
TRS cartoon bank.jpg (32.84 KiB) Viewed 2465 times

The planet will still be here long after we've fucked it up for our species. We need to learn to treat each-other better...

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Alan H
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Re: does anyone really care about global warming?

#209 Postby Alan H » October 10th, 2013, 10:19 pm

^^^^^ This.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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draykorinee
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Re: does anyone really care about global warming?

#210 Postby draykorinee » October 11th, 2013, 6:51 am

Its just so easy to say over the internet though, I fully agree, and I sit next to my kids now thinking about it and realising that I will just not do anything but how awful things are going to get, I sit here churning out gas from my central heating, watching TV, the lights are on because its dark, I just made a cup of tea and I'm sat here showing my kids all the smilies on TH, we're one family chewing through natural resources with not a care in the world. Like I say I try to do my part to make me feel good, but I struggle with being apathetic about it all, apathy is a terrible thing to me too, but I am just as guilty of it in this instance.

I would certainly disagree about being a global civilised society, I think the greater our understanding of the world, the worse we have got, which is weird because knowledge should make the world better, and ofc it has in a lot of instances, I wouldnt be so bold as to say we arent better than the dark ages for example.

We have developed speed, but we have shut ourselves in;
machinery that gives abundance has left us in want.
Our knowledge has made us cynical,
our cleverness hard and unkind.
We think too much and feel too little.
More than machinery we need humanity,
more than cleverness we need kindness and gentleness.
sanctimonious
ˌsaŋ(k)tɪˈməʊnɪəs/Submit
adjectivederogatory
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making a show of being morally superior to other people.

etoile
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Re: does anyone really care about global warming?

#211 Postby etoile » October 11th, 2013, 11:37 am

Fia wrote:Whether or not global warming / cooling happens surely the main point is that human beings need to change our grossly unequal and prolific use of energy and resources. A fortune was spent enabling data to be sent in slightly fewer microseconds to 'improve' the banking industry, yet all our planet's citizens still don't have a roof, sanitation, clean water, food, healthcare, education or dignity.
Surely a civilised global society should have basic human needs as a priority. Sadly, we are not so civilised.

I think the question we should be asking is how can we change this appalling state of affairs in a sustainable way.


Agree with your sentiments. Like the cartoon ; I think I'll always feel that we as a species are 'needful' rather than a disease. We clearly need to find the right balance.
Some of the poorer countries of the Americas and Africa like Brazil and Ethiopia are seeking to meet their energy needs with low carbon, clean hydro electricity which could provide cheap electricity to elements of the populations that haven't had any. Of course companies from developed countries can offset their 'emissions' allowances by investing which could reduce the benefits if they don't change practices in the first place.
And then there are objections to the building of the dams because this does change the environment, dries up flood plains, changes habits for other species and indigenous peoples.
If the crime of ecocide is adopted internationally could this prevent raising living standards for the very poor? condemn them to live on flood plains with no electricity?

etoile
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Re: does anyone really care about global warming?

#212 Postby etoile » October 11th, 2013, 11:46 am

Tetenterre wrote:
Dave B wrote:Didn't say that the Chinese had achieved any kind of kilowatts/person ratio that equated to the West, just that they have the largest population and complete a new power station every few days according to some sources, mostly coal fired.
... and which produce energy for industries that make consumer goods that are largely for consumption by "the West".

This is typical of incoherent UK government policy: the so-called "Climate Change Levy" has effectively shifted jobs from the UK, where energy is produced relatively cleanly, into countries where energy production is far more polluting. And they tell us it's purpose is to reduce CO2 emissions: it increases them!


Also as manufacturing and goods production is done more cheaply abroad haven't we seen a move of companies to 'import' those attitudes into our labour markets with tacit approval of government. We've had an attack on the living wage, reduced hours and insecure job contracts and moves by government to get people to work for their benefits. As markets become more global manufacturers don't have to worry about sustaining home consumer markets with decent wages.

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Alan H
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Re: does anyone really care about global warming?

#213 Postby Alan H » October 28th, 2013, 5:50 pm

Slightly manic, but good:

Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Tetenterre
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Re: does anyone really care about global warming?

#214 Postby Tetenterre » October 29th, 2013, 8:54 am

An interesting read (to get a balance, read the comments as well...)
Real risk of a Maunder minimum 'Little Ice Age' says leading scientist
Steve

Quantum Theory: The branch of science with which people who know absolutely sod all about quantum theory can explain anything.

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Nick
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Re: does anyone really care about global warming?

#215 Postby Nick » November 18th, 2013, 5:18 pm

Thanks, TT.

I read (but only in the Torygraph) that weather conditions such as happened tragically in the Phillipines recently were more common in the mini Ice Ages of past centuries than today. Which puts rather a different slant on climate change....

I'm not a climatologist: is there any justification for this?

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animist
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Re: does anyone really care about global warming?

#216 Postby animist » November 18th, 2013, 5:24 pm

Nick wrote:Thanks, TT.

I read (but only in the Torygraph) that weather conditions such as happened tragically in the Phillipines recently were more common in the mini Ice Ages of past centuries than today. Which puts rather a different slant on climate change....

I'm not a climatologist: is there any justification for this?
wot, for your failing to be a climatologist? None :D

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Alan H
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Re: does anyone really care about global warming?

#217 Postby Alan H » November 18th, 2013, 5:30 pm

Image
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan H
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Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: does anyone really care about global warming?

#218 Postby Alan H » January 17th, 2014, 7:10 pm

UKIP seem to care a lot...

UKIP pledges to ban climate change lessons in schools
UKIP Education spokesman MEP Derek Clark has said the party will go even further. Clark told Index on Censorship:

We will still ban Al Gore’s video for use in schools if I’ve got anything to do with it. I will not have much opposition within the party. It is, of course, not just this video which needs banning; all teaching of global warming being caused in any way by carbon dioxide emissions must also be banned. It just is not happening.”
Where UKIP leads, does not the Tory party follow?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Re: does anyone really care about global warming?

#219 Postby Dave B » January 19th, 2014, 10:52 am

On the BBC World Service "Forum" prog they are talking about scarcity and abundance.

In inevitably energy was a subject in this debate and one of the talkers said that it should be priced so that the less you used the cheaper it was [per unit I assume]. The principle of "Buy more, get it cheaper" is exactly what we do not need, it does not encourage careful use.

But, "pile it high, sell it cheap" has been a common marketing ploy - with every company aiming to get a better share of the market, and therefore higher profits. Thus I pay more for the first so many units and then the price reduces, making it "less worrying" that I leave the heating on for longer when I am not at home.

So, it might seem that the privatisation of energy was yet another body blow to the future of our way of living. Access to "sufficient" energy is seen as a right in any developed or developing country. Perhaps we are going to have to put up with "ugliness", in the form of damns, wind generators, acres of photo-voltaic cells or solar steam generators etc., or the problems of nuclear energy to be sure of the future.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Nick
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Re: does anyone really care about global warming?

#220 Postby Nick » January 19th, 2014, 12:56 pm

Dave B wrote:On the BBC World Service "Forum" prog they are talking about scarcity and abundance.
I didn't hear the programme, but...

Inevitably energy was a subject in this debate and one of the talkers said that it should be priced so that the less you used the cheaper it was [per unit I assume]. The principle of "Buy more, get it cheaper" is exactly what we do not need, it does not encourage careful use.[/quote]I can see the reasoning behind this, but think it is worth pointing out some underlying factors.

First of all, the marginal cost of supplying a small amount of energy is very high. You still need pipes, or wires or whatever, no matter how low your usage. To a large extent, the energyproviders seek to cover their fixed costs first, and then account for the energy used.

But, "pile it high, sell it cheap" has been a common marketing ploy - with every company aiming to get a better share of the market, and therefore higher profits.
That rather goes against the idea of energy companies being money grabbing oligopolists, doesn't it?

Thus I pay more for the first so many units and then the price reduces, making it "less worrying" that I leave the heating on for longer when I am not at home.
Further to my explanation above, it still remains true that energy companies make some profit on your last unit consumed. True, they may not be deterring you from using energy, but it is difficult to determine "wasted" or "unnecessary" energy usage. In a free society, price is perhaps the only available mechanism. And while it might seem a good idea to increase price to reduce usage, many old biddies in "fuel poverty" will not thank you.

There is also a problem with having uniform energy costs over all levels of consumption. Some industries are, by their very nature, high energy users, especially some manufacturing industries, so beloved of the left. This would be sure to make them less viable in the medium term.

So, it might seem that the privatisation of energy was yet another body blow to the future of our way of living.
Not at all. Pricing can be and is regulated by government agencies. They could, if they so wished, abolish standing charges in the energy sector. It would not have to be nationalised to accomplish this.

Access to "sufficient" energy is seen as a right in any developed or developing country. Perhaps we are going to have to put up with "ugliness", in the form of dams, wind generators, acres of photo-voltaic cells or solar steam generators etc., or the problems of nuclear energy to be sure of the future.
People have a nack of willing the ends, without wanting to consider the means. :wink:

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Tetenterre
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Re: does anyone really care about global warming?

#221 Postby Tetenterre » January 20th, 2014, 10:18 am

Two distinct issues here:

#1. Banning climate change lessons: Not good. As long as the lessons are scientific-evidence-based, not political-agenda-driven, this is an important topic and all pupils should be given the opportunity to understand the science.

#2. Banning Al Gore's An Inconvenient Truth DVD in schools. Please do (unless it is used, like those ID DVDs, for demonstrating how science is not done)! It is a scientific travesty, a hotch-potch of error, innuendo, misrepresentation and deception. You could be forgiven for thinking that this piece of outrageous propaganda was perpetrated by climate change sceptics in order to discredit the AGW thesis! (If anyone is interested, I have somewhere the notes I made just after I saw it.)
Steve

Quantum Theory: The branch of science with which people who know absolutely sod all about quantum theory can explain anything.


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